Podcasters are always looking for ways to make money podcasting—and sometimes it seems like brand sponsorships are the only way to do that. But if you’re a smaller show, you deal with topics that aren’t brand-safe, or you just don’t want an advertiser dictating what you can say, ads aren’t necessarily your best option. 

In which case, I’d like to introduce you to Value for Value, also known as V4V. V4V is an innovative monetization method and philosophy that just might revolutionize your approach to podcasting and deepen your relationship with listeners. 

How I discovered Value for Value

I first learned about Value for Value through James Cridland when I guested on Podnews Weekly Review, and then Kyrin Down gave me an overview for my podcast, Podcast Bestie. 

‎I implemented V4V on all three of my podcasts a little over a year ago. Since then, I’ve earned 338,252 sats (Satoshis, essentially Bitcoin pennies), currently worth $232.64. Most of my podcast-related income comes from sponsorships, teaching, and Substack subscriptions, but I think there’s a lot of potential with this method, especially since the value of Bitcoin is projected to grow. I also like how V4V encourages listeners to actively participate in sustaining the content they love.

In attempt to turn other podcasters on to Value for Value and learn how to do it better myself, I’ve assembled a group of V4V early adopters to teach us the ropes: Kyrin Down of the Value 4 Value podcast, Fountain founder Oscar Merry, and Podnews Weekly Review cohosts James Cridland and Sam Sethi (also the CEO of TrueFans).

What is Value for Value?

Value for Value asks listeners to reciprocate the value they receive from a podcast with “time, talent, or treasure.” 

• Time: This is the most basic—simply asking listeners to listen to your show. 
• Talent: This could involve doing something for your show, “like images, promotion, making a website, or producing some audio,” James Cridland said. 
• Treasure: Your audience can pitch in and contribute financially (in a single payment or regular payments), which is referred to as “treasure.” This is where Bitcoin enters the chat. 

Many podcasts are already participating in different forms of V4V “even if they don’t know it,” James Cridland said. “Asking for Patreon supporters or even for people to give you a positive review is all part of helping your listeners give value back for the value they get from your show.”

But the “treasure” part of V4V takes some extra tech. Podcasting 2.0 apps facilitate V4V by enabling micropayments as listeners enjoy the content. James says this amounts to “maybe a cent a minute or even less.” V4V encourages audience engagement by giving listeners the option to send a boost, which is a message attached to a payment in the amount of their choosing. 

These apps also allow for automatic, customizable revenue splits among creators—this might look like 40 percent for each co-host and 20 percent to the editor.

The origins of Value for Value

Oscar Merry credits Adam Curry, podcasting's inventor, with pioneering Value for Value through his show No Agenda. The show has thrived on direct audience support for over 15 years without any advertising, so Curry is a big proponent and success story for audience support. 

In 2020, Curry and Dave Jones created Podcasting 2.0, an open movement aimed “to enhance and evolve the podcasting ecosystem by introducing new features and standards that address limitations and improve the overall experience for both creators and listeners.” 

Oscar explains that Podcasting 2.0 made Value for Value possible with the <podcast:value> tag, which allows podcasters to get paid by their audience directly via any Podcasting 2.0 app.

But Adam Curry isn’t the sole mastermind behind V4V. “Many people believe founding Wired editor Kevin Kelly’s seminal blog post 1,000 True Fans was the catalyst for V4V,” Sam Sethi said. “He argued people should not chase likes and follows but focus on finding 1,000 True Fans who would pay $10 per month.”

How does Value for Value work?

Value for Value begins with the creator’s request for support. "Without the ask, it doesn’t work," Oscar said. “Creators ask their audience to think about the value their content has provided over the years and then ask them to send value back in the form of time, talent, or treasure. Once the listener hears the ask, they can use a modern Podcasting 2.0 app like Fountain to support the creator directly with a payment and a message.”

That payment is in the form of Bitcoin, and there’s a reason for that. V4V payments are typically small, “so normal credit card payments don’t work: they charge something like 30 cents per transaction,” James explains. Instead, Podcasting 2.0 apps, such as Podcast Guru, TrueFans, and others, let listeners convert small monetary amounts into Bitcoin, “which can then be sent over the internet at virtually no cost.”

If the word Bitcoin triggers fears of cryptocurrency scams, James assures us that V4V is not the same as investing in crypto. Instead, “it’s just like buying a fairground token or loading your public transport card,” he said.

Benefits of Value for Value

Value for Value offers a promising alternative to traditional podcast monetization in a number of ways. 

Less reliance on advertisers

James points out that "if you rely on advertising revenue, that means you need to be careful not to upset your advertisers — and it necessarily compromises your show.” 

Value for Value helps podcasters avoid that quandary, which can be especially limiting if your subject matter is risque, controversial, or outside the mainstream. 

“It is a way for people on the margins not to be excluded from financial rewards for their efforts,” Kyrin said.

Good for smaller podcasts

If you don’t have many listeners, you likely can’t work with advertisers in the first place. Not a problem with V4V. “It also lets smaller niche shows become financially sustainable even if they don’t meet minimum listenership barriers for advertising/sponsorship,” Kyrin said.

Unlimited income potential

While becoming a millionaire off of V4V is probably unlikely, it’s not outside the realm of possibility. "Listeners can send as little or as much as they want, which means the upside for creators is not capped," Oscar said. 

Encourages audience feedback

Another benefit is that Value for Value naturally encourages feedback from your audience.“It lets you know that real people are consuming your content and that they value it, eliminating the feeling of speaking into a void,” Kyrin said. 

“And because those minute-by-minute payments come in instantly,” James said, “You can also get really accurate data on how your listeners are consuming your show.” 

Plus, on platforms like Fountain, boosts are surfaced on a social media-style feed, enhancing community building and providing an effective discovery mechanism for podcasters to grow their audience. 

Challenges of Value for Value

But V4V isn’t all upside. There are some hurtles to overcome if you want to use it as an income source. 

Steep learning curve

“Value for Value can seem a bit daunting as it’s a total re-think on how to monetize content on the internet,” Oscar said. 

There can also be challenges with using unfamiliar new payment technologies like Lightning. “But like any new technology, the creators that are early will be best placed to succeed,” Oscar said.

Asking isn’t always easy

"Asking for the first time can feel like you’re begging," Kyrin said. “This is a big mental hurdle that you must first overcome.” 

Oscar suggests looking to other creators for ideas that can help frame the ask.

Audience support requires an audience connection

“Because the model relies on a personal connection with your fans, it means the creator must be in tune with their audience and want to connect with them,” Kyrin said.

Volatile form of income

While listeners can give unlimited funds, they can also take those funds away. That makes this a riskier approach to monetization.

Should I consider Value for Value as part of my monetization strategy?

James Cridland and Kyrin Down recommend V4V to all podcasters, noting it complements other income sources without detracting from them. 

"You can still take advertising. You don’t have to ask [for audience support] (but it’ll work much better if you do)," James said. 

"I don’t feel it detracts from any other source of income, as it is all done on a voluntary basis,” Kyrin said.

Sam sees it as “best suited to geeks, technologists, and early adopters” but notes growing mainstream interest. "We recently crossed 20K podcasts now V4V enabled. Compared to 500K active podcasts, 20K is still a drop in the ocean," Sam said. 

However, we’re already seeing more widespread adoption as more mainstream podcasters start to use it and more hosting platforms add functionality and education on V4V.

How to get started with Value for Value

Start by browsing a V4V platform as a user to get a feel for the concept. 

As a founder, Oscar obviously recommends starting with the Fountain app—you can browse the charts page to explore top V4V shows and episodes ranked by the value they receive. Their Podcaster Guide also offers a comprehensive overview of how everything works to help you get started.

But there are plenty of other podcast apps that support V4V, too, including:

• Podverse
• Curiocaster
• TrueFans
• Podcast Guru
• Podfriend
• Castamatic

Note: Many of these apps may require an account with Alby in order to exchange Bitcoin.

Tips for making the Value for Value pitch to your audience

The experts I interviewed offered some advice on how to ask your audience to donate through Value for Value.

• Don’t set a fixed amount. “$2 a month might be a lot of money for some people; others might be happy to give $20 a month to you,” James said. 
• Choose your words carefully. “If you use the word “tip,” you’ll get a tip-size amount of money,” James said.
• Ask for support for your existing work, not additional perks. “Don’t give stuff away to your supporters,” James warns. “If you’re not careful, you end up doubling your workload,” he says. For a no-cost incentive, recognize supporters publicly by shouting them out on the podcast or listing them on your website.
• Don’t call it Bitcoin. Sam recommends avoiding Bitcoin terminology since some folks have negative connotations with cryptocurrency. "Call them value tokens and explain that if you don’t want to have adverts interrupting the podcast or forcing content behind a subscription paywall, then this new V4V method of monetization is the best.”
• Use relatable comparisons to highlight your content’s worth. “For example, buying a cup of coffee. How much value did you get from that $5 coffee, and how does that compare to the value you received from an hour-long podcast episode that made you laugh, taught you something new, or changed your perspective on the world — probably more than $5!” Oscar said.

The best podcasts using Value for Value

Oscar recommends listening to other podcasts that are having success with V4V, observing how they frame the ask, and putting your own spin on it. Here are some of our experts’ favorite V4V podcasts:

• No Agenda: “No Agenda has been using value 4 value for many years and makes enough money to be a full-time job for them,” James said.
• Podcasting 2.0: "Podcasting 2.0 was the show that introduced me to the concept,” Kyrin said.
• Behind The Sch3m3s: “They incorporate voice messages, boostagrams, a chat room, a live show with V4V music, specialized sound effects the audience can trigger, and all manner of wonderful things,” Kyrin said.
• Boostagram Ball: "Boostagram Ball is Adam Curry’s music podcast show. It has a loyal following along with No Agenda," Sam said.
• Linux Unplugged: “They set a value for their next episode, and only when they get the value paid in sats will they record the next show.”

Real-world results from Value for Value

James has seen significant contributions over 18 months. "More than 250 people have given ‘value,’ and they’ve collectively paid more than $2,800 to the podcast I run that uses value for value," he said. He emphasizes that they don’t ask for much and the fact that V4V is still in its infancy, “but that shows the potential, I think.”

Kyrin’s various shows have experienced differing financial success. “My Book Reviews show has struggled, my main show, Mere Mortals, is comparable to CPM amounts from advertising, and the V4V show has blown potential advertising revenues out of the water (note that these are all shows with <300 listens per episode),” he said.

Though of course, money isn’t the only marker of success. “On the larger holistic side of things, the V4V model reinvigorated my passion for podcasting,” Kyrin reflects. It gave him confidence that he had fans who valued his creations. “I might not still be podcasting if it wasn’t for the V4V framework that showed me how to connect with my audience."